I'm from Missouri

This site is named for the famous statement of US Congressman Willard Duncan Vandiver from Missouri : "I`m from Missouri -- you'll have to show me." This site is dedicated to skepticism of official dogma in all subjects. Just-so stories are not accepted here. This is a site where controversial subjects such as evolution theory and the Holocaust may be freely debated.

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Location: Los Angeles, California, United States

My biggest motivation for creating my own blogs was to avoid the arbitrary censorship practiced by other blogs and various other Internet forums. Censorship will be avoided in my blogs -- there will be no deletion of comments, no closing of comment threads, no holding up of comments for moderation, and no commenter registration hassles. Comments containing nothing but insults and/or ad hominem attacks are discouraged. My non-response to a particular comment should not be interpreted as agreement, approval, or inability to answer.

Saturday, May 20, 2006

Ed Brayton wrong again on Dover mootness issue

Ed Brayton, in an article titled "A New Case on Mootness" on his blog "Dispatches from the Culture Wars," is now arguing that a new federal district-court decision, Alpha Iota Omega Christian Fraternity v. Hamm, does not support the idea that the Dover school board could possibly have mooted the Dover lawsuit and thereby avoided attorney fees by repealing the ID policy prior to judgment. He got it wrong again.

In that new decision, the judge ruled that the case was moot as a result of a change in policy by the University of North Carolina while the case was pending. Ed vainly tried to distinguish this case from the Dover case.

Ed made the following arguments:

A. There was no request for nominal damages in the UNC case. Indeed, the judge's ruling specifically notes that fact because, if it had been otherwise, it would have demanded a ruling on the merits.

Wrong. The plaintiffs amended the complaint by adding a claim for nominal damages and other new claims (page 23 of opinion). The opinion said, "...... the court in its discretion will not allow the continuation of a lawsuit merely to allow Plaintiffs to seek nominal damages, which, even if proven, would be limited to one dollar." (page 29 of opinion)

B. No trial had taken place in the case. The judge had issued a preliminary injunction against the university, but the actual trial had not taken place on the merits of the case yet. In Dover, the trial was over and a ruling was a mere few days away.

As for no trial having taken place in the case, the courts have never ruled that the stage of the litigation should be a consideration in deciding whether a case should be declared to be moot. After great expenditures of time and money by the parties involved, the Supreme Court dismissed the Marco DeFunis reverse-discrimination case as moot because he was about to graduate from the law school whose admission policies he challenged. The Buckhannon Board & Care Home, Inc. v. West Virginia Department of Health & Human Resources, 532 U.S. 598 (2001) case was declared to be moot after the plaintiff had incurred considerable legal expenses, and the Supreme Court ruled that the "catalyst theory" (the notion that when a case is dismissed as moot because of the defendant's voluntary cessation of the challenged action, the plaintiff is entitled to a statutory award of attorney fees on the grounds that the lawsuit allegedly caused the voluntary cessation) did not entitle the plaintiff to an award of attorney fees.

C. There was far less chance of the new policy being reversed, for several reasons. First, because university administrations do not change every year (or two years) the way school boards do. Second, because the judge's injunction clearly told the university that if they reversed themselves, they'd get hauled into court and almost certainly lose.

As for the statement "There was far less chance of the new policy being reversed," judgment of the likelihood of repetition is subjective and speculative. In the Dover case, there were the following major disincentives for re-instatement of the ID policy or something similar: (1) the ID policy and the lawsuit had deeply divided the community and brought notoriety to the community; and (2) there was the possibility of more legal expenses. As for the statement that the judge told the defendants in Alpha Iota Omega that they would "almost certainly lose" another lawsuit, Ed Brayton's quote of the opinion said nothing of the kind. All this quote said was that the judge was satisfied that the possibility of re-instatement of the challenged policy was "unlikely" and that the defendants could be "trusted" to not re-instate it. Also, a judge telling defendants that they would "almost certainly lose" another lawsuit would have been improperly giving legal advice to the defendants. Also, the purpose of a preliminary injunction is not to send a message to a defendant of likely loss of a lawsuit -- the purpose of a preliminary injunction is to provide temporary relief or prevent irreparable harm pending further rulings by the court. To grant a preliminary injunction, a judge does not even necessarily need to be convinced that the suit has merit.

======================================================

I would like to post these rebuttals on "Dispatches from the Culture Wars," but I cannot. I have been banned there. Ed Brayton has just posted an article there -- "Good Ol' Larry Fafarman" -- that brazenly brags about banning me and that ridicules me for thinking that he might have the decency to change his mind by considering at least some of my comments for posting. However, he didn't carry out his threat to post a link to this blog -- apparently he is afraid to do that. The bloggers and their handpicked commenters on Panda's Thumb and Dispatches from the Culture Wars congratulate each other when they easily win debates after opposing arguments have been censored.

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5 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey, someone's posting under my handle!

Larry, you may think the world's flat, too, but that won't make it so.

I think most people in this world will accept the opinion of lawyers and judges regarding the law long before they'll accept anything you have to say about legal matters.

Besides, as you prove over and over on this blog (and elsewhere), you're a pathological lawyer.

Saturday, May 20, 2006 6:09:00 PM  
Blogger Larry Fafarman said...

Anonymous wrote --

>>>>>>I think most people in this world will accept the opinion of lawyers and judges regarding the law long before they'll accept anything you have to say about legal matters.<<<<<<

OK, Anonymous, here is a judge's opinion that was presented here: "...... the court in its discretion will not allow the continuation of a lawsuit merely to allow Plaintiffs to seek nominal damages, which, even if proven, would be limited to one dollar."

Anonymous, I have never asked anyone to just "accept" my opinion on legal matters. Anyone who disagrees with me is free to post opposing arguments. I have seen a lot of lawyers on these blogs just say "trust me" -- but it is not for nothing that I named this blog after the slogan, "I'm from Missouri -- you'll have to show me."

No intelligent, reasonable person is going to be persuaded by your idiotic posts.

Saturday, May 20, 2006 11:42:00 PM  
Blogger Larry Fafarman said...

Reply to Colin ( 5/20/2006 06:47:59 PM ) --

I can't believe this. Well, here I go again, back to moot court. That is all this is, because this Monday-morning stuff can never excuse the failure of the Dover school board to repeal the ID policy in December.

>>>>>The complaint did not include a request for nominal damages.....The plaintiffs did not add a claim for nominal damages. The language you’re citing is the court’s decision not to allow such an amendment. The plaintiffs did not request damages...... They then asked to add a claim for damages. If they had added the damages claim earlier, the case would not have been mootable.<<<<<

Picky, picky. OK, maybe instead of just saying that the plaintiffs amended the complaint, I should have said that the plaintiffs attempted to amend the complaint -- big deal. But the mere act of attempting to amend could be considered amendment, whether or not the amendment is accepted by the court. Anyway, one of the attempted amendments was a claim for nominal damages. The reason that the judge gave for mooting this nominal-damages claim was not that this claim was not in the original complaint -- the reason he gave was, as I quoted, . "...... the court in its discretion will not allow the continuation of a lawsuit merely to allow Plaintiffs to seek nominal damages, which, even if proven, would be limited to one dollar." There is no reason to believe that this decision to moot the nominal-damages claim would have been any different if the claim had been in the original complaint.

>>>>Come on, Larry, you knew that at least two people---Brayton and myself---would read this case. Did you really think you could sneak such a blatant lie past us?<<<<<

It's not a lie and I did not try to sneak it past you, and if I did, it is obvious that I have now refuted you in broad daylight.

Furthermore, the fact that someone has read an opinion does not mean that they cannot make mistakes in remembering or interpreting it.

>>>>>As for no trial having taken place in the case, the courts have never ruled that the stage of the litigation should be a consideration in deciding whether a case should be declared to be moot.

I agree that a case can be mooted before and after trial. But it is a relevant distinction between the cases. Practically speaking, a district court judge is going to be much more reluctant to moot a case if the defendants forced it to trial....... I agree that this is not a dispositive factor.<<<<<<

If the Dover board had repealed the ID policy before the judgment, how would that be attempting to "force" the courts do decide the issue?

Anyway, you are waffling again. To prove your case that there was no chance that the Dover school board could have mooted the lawsuit and avoided the fees, you must prove everything with absolute certainty. On the other hand, I can still win my case even if my claims are highly improbable.

>>>>You’re right, your assessment is subjective and speculative.<<<<<

When I spoke about judgment of the likelihood of repetition being subjective and speculative, I was speaking in general terms, stupid. Neither you nor Ed Brayton have crystal balls.

>>>>>You’re right, the two sentences Ed quotes don’t say precisely that the defendants would likely lose. He probably doesn’t want to force his readers to plow through several pages of opinion, and trusts that they’ll read it themselves if they care. As I did, and you apparently haven’t<<<<<

But Ed said that the quote was supposed to support his statement that the judge told the defendants that they would likely lose another lawsuit if they re-instated the old policy. Sheeesh, give me a break.

>>>>>Read section I(B) of the opinion; it’s several pages on the theme that the defendants’ new policy protects the allegedly violated rights of the plaintiffs. I see that as a pretty clear statement that the defendants were going to lose.<<<<<

It is true that the opinion suggested that the defendants would lose a lawsuit if they went back to the old policy, but I feel that the opinion was wrong in suggesting that. Since the opinion was not supposed to be a judgment on the merits, the opinion should have only concerned itself with whether the university's new policy satisfied the demands of the plaintiffs (the opinion said that the new policy did satisfy those demands).

According to the discussion in the thread under Ed Brayton's "A New Case on Mootness," the university might have gone too far in accommodating the plaintiffs by loosening the non-discrimination policy. The ACLU and/or the AUSCS (Americans United for Separation of Church and State) might even put pressure on the university to tighten the non-discrimination policy again -- in fact, that possibility is a very good reason why there is a big risk that the university will try to re-instate the older, stricter non-discrimination policy! So your and Ed's argument that repetition is unlikely in the UNC case goes out the window.

>>>>>It’s a clear message. Nor does it seem like “improper legal advice.” Do you have any particular rule in mind when you say that?<<<<<<

It's the same unwritten rule that says that judicial nominees, when testifying at their confirmation hearings in Congress, are not supposed to give "previews" of how they would rule in specific cases. The judicial nominees are supposed to keep open minds. Suppose, for example, that the Dover school board had repealed the ID policy prior to judgment and then the school board's attorney came up with good arguments as to why that should moot the case. That would have made Judge Jones look very foolish after he indicated that it would make no difference to him.

>>>>>Also, the purpose of a preliminary injunction is not to send a message to a defendant of likely loss of a lawsuit -- the purpose of a preliminary injunction is to provide temporary relief or prevent irreparable harm pending further rulings by the court.

What relevance do these dubious statements have to anything being discussed? The court didn’t grant any sort of injunction; it dismissed the case.<<<<<<<

A preliminary injunction was granted in the case, as Ed and the opinion stated. I thought that you read the whole opinion.

>>>>>I would like to post these rebuttals on "Dispatches from the Culture Wars," but I cannot. I have been banned there.

You cannot hear me, but I am playing a sad and doleful dirge upon the bagpipes in honor of your lost and lamented (not to mention lamentable) posting rights.<<<<<<

You may think that the bans on me are a big joke, but you and your pals over at Panda's Thumb and Dogpatch are paying a big price in reputation and credibility.

Sunday, May 21, 2006 1:03:00 AM  
Blogger Larry Fafarman said...

FishyFred said...

>>>>>FYI, Ed edited a link to this post into his "Good Ol' Larry Fafarman, Part 2" post.<<<<<<

Thanks very much for the tip, FishyFred -- I have posted a new article in response.

Sunday, May 21, 2006 7:22:00 AM  
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Thursday, July 20, 2006 12:34:00 PM  

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