Rabbis attend holocaust-revisionism conference in Iran
An AOL news article reported that six members of a group called Jews United Against Zionism -- including two rabbis -- are attending the holocaust-revisionism conference in Iran not because they question official holocaust history but because they are opposed to the existence of Israel. The article has a photo showing one of the group's members wearing a badge with the flag of Israel covered by the international circle-and-slash symbol. These people showed great flexibility in setting aside the differences they had with the holocaust deniers and revisionists who are also attending the conference. In contrast, I have been told that some Darwinism doubters are afraid to be associated with me because of my holocaust revisionism.
Labels: Holocaust revisionism (2 of 2)
posted by Larry Fafarman | 12/12/2006 07:39:00 AM
18 Comments:
> I have been told that some Darwinism doubters are afraid to be associated with me because of my holocaust revisionism. <
I doubt that. Most probably do not wish to be associated with you because they may feel that ineptitude in debate would tend to discredit their cause. It is probably the same reason as why the opponents of the smog fee tried to distance themselves from you.
Voice in the Wilderness said...
>>>>> I have been told that some Darwinism doubters are afraid to be associated with me because of my holocaust revisionism. <
I doubt that. Most probably do not wish to be associated with you because they may feel that ineptitude in debate would tend to discredit their cause. It is probably the same reason as why the opponents of the smog fee tried to distance themselves from you.<<<<<<
VIW, damn you, I warned that I was going to start deleting stuff that is not based on first-hand knowledge or reliable sources -- and your above statement certainly qualifies.
Someone told me that he and others wanted to cite my articles about ID but were afraid to do so because of my holocaust revisionism. I was very disappointed because I missed an opportunity to get some publicity for my blog.
> VIW, damn you, I warned that I was going to start deleting stuff that is not based on first-hand knowledge or reliable sources <
You must begin deleting much of your own material then.
As far as deleting me, you may show your hypocrisy any time you want. I am sure that the other blogs will get a big kick out of seeing you do what you criticised them for.
You quote one person giving that reason for not citing you. From what I have seen on other blogs, there are other reasons. You must be aware of them as I know you read every blog on this subject.
This blog is deteriorating. The mindless troll has lost every argument and seems to be getting more and more desperate in trying to get attention.
If you want people to take you seriously, try answering just a few of the many pointed questions asked of you. Your claim that you have no obligation to answer just makes you look weak.
What is your point as to holocaust-revisionism. That crap about not being able to identify Jews is absurd. What difference is it whether those murdered were 99% Jews or only 70%? What difference if there were 6 million or only 3 million. Do you doubt that a lot of your close relatives went up the chimneys? It seems that your only purpose of following this is to intentionally draw negative attention. You can draw enough negative attention for your pathetic attempts at debate.
Anonymous said...
>>>>> What is your point as to holocaust-revisionism. That crap about not being able to identify Jews is absurd. What difference is it whether those murdered were 99% Jews or only 70%? What difference if there were 6 million or only 3 million. <<<<<
The problem is that I have already answered many questions before they are even asked. I have to waste time going over points that I have already made instead of spending the time on more worthwhile things like researching and writing new articles and commenting on other blogs.
In answer to the point that you raised: Because of the Jew-identification problem, it seems that if there had been a really big holocaust, we would have heard more complaints from holocaust survivors who felt that they were mistaken for Jews. Also, it seems that people would have been afraid to help perpetrate the holocaust because of a fear of being mistaken for Jews themselves.
> The problem is that I have already answered many questions before they are even asked. <
Only in your mind. You must answer the questions here on this blog for it to count. Restating a point after its flaws have been exposed by your readers is not answering. Since you rarely answer questions by anything other than restating your claims, we have come to the logical deduction that you have no answers (despite the claim on your long abandoned principles on the blog header).
> In answer to the point that you raised: Because of the Jew-identification problem, it seems that if there had been a really big holocaust, we would have heard more complaints from holocaust survivors who felt that they were mistaken for Jews. <
Now it comes out. You doubt that a large holocaust actually occurred! I have personally seen two of the death camps. Do you believe that they were set up for the tourists?
> Also, it seems that people would have been afraid to help perpetrate the holocaust because of a fear of being mistaken for Jews themselves. <
It didn't require large numbers of people doing anything more than keeping their heads in the sand. As for being mistaken for Jews, the jet plane program was delayed for years as it was shifted from Heinkel to Messerschmidt due to the claim that Heinkel "had a Jewish nose".
As you endly repeat things in hopes that they will eventually be believed, I will repeat something in the vain attempt to have it answered.
What difference is it whether those murdered were 99% Jews or only 70%? What difference if there were 6 million or only 3 million? Why are you hiding from this question? Please don't insult our intelligence by claiming that you don't have time to answer. Without an answer to these basic questions you only show yourself to be someone with a personal agenda against your relatives. Please show us otherwise.
You are wasting your time, Anonymous. Larry(?) has shown that he has no answers. I think that you have given his real reason for his zeal on this subject. Now let's see if you can figure why he feels he has a dog in the creationism fight.
Anonymous said...
>>>>>> The problem is that I have already answered many questions before they are even asked. <
>>>>> You must answer the questions here on this blog for it to count. Restating a point after its flaws have been exposed by your readers is not answering. <<<<<<
The problem is that many of the comments here never address the points I made but just say that I am wrong or that I am stupid -- or something like that -- and nothing more.
>>>>>> Since you rarely answer questions by anything other than restating your claims, we have come to the logical deduction that you have no answers <<<<<
Since the claims that I restate are perfectly valid, how can it be said that I have no answers?
>>>>> I have personally seen two of the death camps. <<<<<<
That is not evidence of how many people were killed or how many were Jews.
>>>>> As for being mistaken for Jews, the jet plane program was delayed for years as it was shifted from Heinkel to Messerschmidt due to the claim that Heinkel "had a Jewish nose". <<<<<
Now you are arguing my side!
I think that Adolf Eichmann had a Jewish nose too. And he had a Jewish name.
It is just a waste of my time to discuss these things with you. Anyway, a lot of other bloggers do not bother to answer commenters who disagree with them, so I don't see why I should (unless a commenter raises a really good point).
The Persian Midget's nuclear Satanic fantasies would still be fulfilled even if Iran were to cause the deaths of several hundred thousand of their allegedly precious Palestinians (or Iranians for that matter). It'd all be for a good cause: the return of the Mahdi (an ayatollah on steroids).
> The problem is that many of the comments here never address the points I made <
Many of them address those points directly but if they disagree with you, you ignore them.
> but just say that I am wrong or that I am stupid -- or something like that -- and nothing more. <
That sounds like your standard reply to anything with which you disagree.
> Since the claims that I restate are perfectly valid, how can it be said that I have no answers? <
Many of your "points" are unsupported and when logical holes are pointed out, you merely repeat the original statements. That is how it can be said that you have no answers.
> That is not evidence of how many people were killed or how many were Jews. <
Don't play neutron star again. The exact number is irrelevant, the percentage who were jews is irrelevant. You are irrelevant.
> I think that Adolf Eichmann had a Jewish nose too. And he had a Jewish name. <
You have a Jewish name and Jewish parents but do not have a Jewish nose. What is the point? The number of people who were misidentified has nothing to do with the fact that the Nazis attempted to do away with all Jews. He also attempted to kill off all Gypsies and even Adventists.
> It is just a waste of my time to discuss these things with you. <
It certainly is if you have no reasons behind your posts. If you had any logical backing for your claims I am sure that we would have long since heard of it.
> unless a commenter raises a really good point <
Many have. You have no answers. That is why you keep losing arguments. That is why you are always getting your ass kicked.
Anonymous, how does this count for accuracy and style? Nearly everyone is getting his ass over the goal posts so it will be a close competition.
Not bad, Voice but I expect Kevin to show up with an unbeatable entry.
Well, I guess people are clamoring for my input, so here goes.
>>>Because of the Jew-identification problem, it seems that if there had been a really big holocaust, we would have heard more complaints from holocaust survivors who felt that they were mistaken for Jews. Also, it seems that people would have been afraid to help perpetrate the holocaust because of a fear of being mistaken for Jews themselves.<<<
About 11 million people died in the Holocaust. There are four major categories: Polish Jews (3 million deaths), Polish non-Jews (3 million deaths), non-Polish Jews (3 million deaths), and non-Polish non-Jews (2 million deaths - these included Romany, Jehovah witnesses, political prisoners, homosexuals, mentally ill, and POWs). That menas that Poles and Jews made up the majority of the victims (with a 50% overlap), but a higher percentage of Jewish population were victims. Therefore, it is understandable that the largest community that was hardest hit receive the lion's share of the sholarly interest (let alone the public interest). But it is important to remember that not all the victims were Jewish. Insofar as Larry may be trying to emphasize that point, I support him.
That said, his arguments here are ludicrous.
First of all, there were reports of people being mistakenly identified as Jews. Even if we leave aside people who never thought of themselves as Jewish but were classified as Jewish because of their ancestry, by far the largest population of those who felt they were mistaken for Jews, there are reports of those who were mistakenly identified as Jews.
The persecution of Jews in the Reich started long before the Holocaust. Identification started in 1933, when a census was taken that included data on Jewish identity (among others), as well as the beginning of a series of laws that restricted Jews from certain professions. 1935 saw the release of the Nuremburg Race Laws, in which Jewish identity was identified as any of the following:
1) 3 or 4 Jewish grandparents
2) 2 Jewish grandparents and member of Jewish community on or after September 15, 1935
3) married to a Jew on or after September 15, 1935
4) born with at least one Jewish parent on or after September 15,1935
Also in 1935 there was a regional census, and the number of laws against Jews owning property or being permitted in certain professions continued to increase and accelerate. In 1935-1936, the various undesirables were required to register - including Jews and Romany, to name a few. Statistics were even gathered in nearby nations, especially Poland; the Nazis had completed a registry of Polish citizens prior to the invasion. The 1939 census had a special supplementary questionnaire that included Jewish ancestry and education. In September of 1939, after the invasion, laws were passed requiring all citizens to have identification cards. Among other data, these ID cards contained information on their racial classification, such as Jewish, Polish, or Romany. The introduction to The Nazi Census, first written in 1983 and translated by Edwin Black in 2003, quotes a telegram by Reinhard Heydrich, chief of the Security Police, stating that
the evacuation of Poles and Jews in the new eastern provinces will be conducted by the Security Police... The census documents provide the basis for the evacuation. All persons in the new provinces possess a copy of the form. The census form is the temporary identification card, which certifies residency... By order of the Reichsfuhrer-SS, residency without an identification card is punishable by death. (I couldn't copy and paste, so there may be transcription errors).
The point of all that info is this. There was a long period of time in which persons mis-identified as Jews had an opportunity to take steps to correct the registry before the start of the Holocaust. Not only that, the way the laws were enacted, people would be motivated to correct any errors that identified them as an undesirable minority such as a Jew.
There is a famous quote that follows the form "First they came for the..., but I said nothing." It highlights the views of many people of the Reich: as long as they weren't coming after me, why should I object? Remeber, the persecution of the Jews and other non-desirables began slowly, chipping away at their rights, while at the same time attempting to blame them for all the problems facing the country. And as the rights grew more restrictive, the punishments for disobeying or speaking against the law grew harsher. Besides, why should they worry about being mistaken for a Jew? They have an ID card issued by the government that proves that they aren't Jewish! The reality is, as long as they had their card and didn't speak out agianst the government, they were safe. It would seem much more likely they would help perpetrate the Holocaust to prove they weren't Jewish if there was any question to their identity!
Finally, I find it ironic and highly amusing that Larry has complained recently about being afraid of being associated with "Darwinism doubters" who also are against stem cell research and global warming. Well, I'd find it ironic, except that hypocrisy from Larry is to be expected.
> Jewish identity was identified as any of the following:
1) 3 or 4 Jewish grandparents
Larry(?) had 4 Jewish grandparents
4) born with at least one Jewish parent on or after September 15,1935
Larry(?) had 2 Jewish parents and was born in the late '40s.
Ergo, Larry(?) would have gone up the chimney.
You have not disappointed us, Kevin.
Kevin Vicklund said,
>>>>First of all, there were reports of people being mistakenly identified as Jews. <<<<<
I have not heard of any.
>>>>>>
1) 3 or 4 Jewish grandparents
2) 2 Jewish grandparents and member of Jewish community on or after September 15, 1935
3) married to a Jew on or after September 15, 1935
4) born with at least one Jewish parent on or after September 15,1935
<<<<<<
Where did the Nazis get all this wonderful genealogical data, particularly data that concerned people's religious beliefs? And what is a Jew? We still don't know what a Jew is.
Also, considering the great difficulty of identifying some marginal Jews, it seems that the Nazis would have tattooed them immediately for permanent identification.
>>>>> Statistics were even gathered in nearby nations, especially Poland; the Nazis had completed a registry of Polish citizens prior to the invasion. <<<<<
How in the hell could the Nazis create a registry of the citizens of a sovereign foreign nation? And what good is it to register people if you can't find or identify them? And what about all the other countries that the Nazis invaded?
>>>>>By order of the Reichsfuhrer-SS, residency without an identification card is punishable by death. <<<<<
Yeah, like being caught without a driver's license is punishable by death.
>>>> why should they worry about being mistaken for a Jew? They have an ID card issued by the government that proves that they aren't Jewish! <<<<<
What about before they got their ID cards? And what if they believed that they were mistakenly classified as Jews? And what if some of their relatives and friends were classified as Jews? I think that people have just not thought through this holocaust thing.
A "systematic" Jewish holocaust is impossible without some reliable way of distinguishing between Jews and non-Jews -- there are no two ways about it. So how come this problem of Jew identification has been almost completely ignored by both mainstream holocaust historians and holocaust revisionists & deniers? The one book I know that addressed this problem of Jew identification, "IBM and the Holocaust," fell flat on its face. See this and this. Also see this.
>>>>>Larry has complained recently about being afraid of being associated with "Darwinism doubters" who also are against stem cell research and global warming. <<<<<
Wrong -- the Darwinism doubters said that they were afraid of being associated with me.
Tell me, Kevin, why is it that in so many countries you can go to jail for questioning official holocaust history? Answer that.
> I have not heard of any. <
There is a great deal that you have not heard of. That has no bearing or effect on its existence.
> Where did the Nazis get all this wonderful genealogical data, particularly data that concerned people's religious beliefs? <
As someone who has done genealogical research, I can tell you that is the easiest sort of thing to find, even easier than finding their occupation. Most early records of births, marriages and deaths were kept by churches and synagogues rather than the state.
> We still don't know what a Jew is. <
"We"? Do you have a frog in your pocket?
> it seems that the Nazis would have tattooed them immediately for permanent identification. <
It took them some time to get around to this but they did.
> How in the hell could the Nazis create a registry of the citizens of a sovereign foreign nation? <
That doesn't take much imagination. To get a copy of most foreign censuses you need only to go to Santa Monica. You live only 9.8 miles from the site.
> And what good is it to register people if you can't find or identify them? <
It was little problem to find and identify them. There were always collaborators. Most occupied countries quickly formed their own SS units.
> And what about all the other countries that the Nazis invaded? <
The solution would be the same.
> Yeah, like being caught without a driver's license is punishable by death. <
Don't play the dunce, Larry(?). There is a great difference.
> I think that people have just not thought through this holocaust thing. <
You obviously haven't.
> A "systematic" Jewish holocaust is impossible without some reliable way of distinguishing between Jews and non-Jews <
It is quite simple. Some Jews got away and some non-Jews were killed. Unless you want to get into philosophical discussions of what a Jew might be, it would be fairly easy to identify large numbers of them.
> So how come this problem of Jew identification has been almost completely ignored <
Because it isn't a real problem outside of your mind.
> the Darwinism doubters said that they were afraid of being associated with me. <
And gave their reasons. And others who did not want to be associated with you haven't.
Remember when people on your own side on the smog fee case asked to be taken off of your mailing list? Remember your irrational response to this?
> Answer that. <
You have established a precedent. You answer nothing and say you aren't required to do so. Why then should Kevin bother?
Holocaust stuff later, if I get around to it.
>>>>>Larry has complained recently about being afraid of being associated with "Darwinism doubters" who also are against stem cell research and global warming. <<<<<
>>>Wrong -- the Darwinism doubters said that they were afraid of being associated with me.<<<
So do you retract your post written November 2 titled Darwinism and global warming? You complained about having your views being associated with the President's views on science due to the fact that you are both against the accurate teaching of evolutionary science.
Lies and hypocrisy is the norm for Larry.
>>>>>>First of all, there were reports of people being mistakenly identified as Jews. <<<<<<
>>>I have not heard of any.<<<
Of course, you haven't even attempted to look for such accounts, either. They are out there. But you have to actually read some books. Oh, btw, you aren't going to find these on google because a) these accounts were recorded before the internet and b) "identity" is a sociological/anthropological term that has a different meaning than what you are looking for, and almost everything out there on Jewish identity uses the academic meaning of the word.
>>>>>>
1) 3 or 4 Jewish grandparents
2) 2 Jewish grandparents and member of Jewish community on or after September 15, 1935
3) married to a Jew on or after September 15, 1935
4) born with at least one Jewish parent on or after September 15,1935
<<<<<<
>>>Where did the Nazis get all this wonderful genealogical data, particularly data that concerned people's religious beliefs?<<<
Churches and synagogues kept detailed records of births, marriages, and deaths, and the Nazi's required them to turn this data over to the government. The government also started keeping track of this information in the 1880's (if I remember the dates correctly). The censuses asked these questions, including the 1933 and earlier censuses, before the persecution had really started. In particular, the 1939 census required all citizens to indicate their religion and ancestry. For 6 years prior to 1939, more and more people had to prove their ancestry and had their ancestry investigated for purposes of being employed. The Nazis had almost a decade and thousands of people to gather the information and refine their methods.
>>>And what is a Jew? We still don't know what a Jew is.<<<
Grandparents were considered Jewish in the abstract if they at any time practiced Judaism as a religion, or if they were living and met one of the 4 criteria. Of course, this occasionally led to someone being considered Jewish because a grandparent converted, but the grandparent as an individual was not considered Jewish! The system was perfect, but there's no doubt that the Nazis did their best to apply it.
>>>Also, considering the great difficulty of identifying some marginal Jews, it seems that the Nazis would have tattooed them immediately for permanent identification.<<<
Why? Once identified, they were in the system. The system was quite capable of keeping track of people.
>>>>>> Statistics were even gathered in nearby nations, especially Poland; the Nazis had completed a registry of Polish citizens prior to the invasion. <<<<<<
>>>How in the hell could the Nazis create a registry of the citizens of a sovereign foreign nation?<<<
By employing 2,000 people to investigate and catalog the populace of neghboring countries over the course of several years.
>>>And what good is it to register people if you can't find or identify them?<<<
Whoever said they couldn't find or identify them? They were planning to invade. This was part of the plan on how to handle the populace.
>>>And what about all the other countries that the Nazis invaded?<<<
What about them? Did I claim that the Nazis didn't investigate those other countries? Look at the numbers - most of them didn't have nearly the percentage loss that Poland did. That's because they weren't investigated as closely as Poland was.
>>>>>>By order of the Reichsfuhrer-SS, residency without an identification card is punishable by death. <<<<<<
>>>Yeah, like being caught without a driver's license is punishable by death.<<<
In Nazi Germany, it was.
>>>>>> why should they worry about being mistaken for a Jew? They have an ID card issued by the government that proves that they aren't Jewish! <<<<<<
>>>What about before they got their ID cards? And what if they believed that they were mistakenly classified as Jews? And what if some of their relatives and friends were classified as Jews? I think that people have just not thought through this holocaust thing.<<<
The worst atrocities (ghettoization, concentration, and extermination) didn't happen until after ID cards were issued. Those mistakenly identified as Jewish had several years to prove it in court. The Destruction of the European Jews, by Raul Hilberg (1983), documents several such cases, some of which were successful. It is obvious that some people have "not thought through this holocaust thing" and one such person is Larry Fafarman.
>>>A "systematic" Jewish holocaust is impossible without some reliable way of distinguishing between Jews and non-Jews -- there are no two ways about it. So how come this problem of Jew identification has been almost completely ignored by both mainstream holocaust historians and holocaust revisionists & deniers? The one book I know that addressed this problem of Jew identification, "IBM and the Holocaust," fell flat on its face. See this and this. Also see this.<<<
It hasn't been ignored by mainstream holocaust historians. I've now pointed out two books written in the 80's that address the very issues Larry has brought up - and that is by no means the only two books. I can't attest to why the denialists and revisionists haven't brought it up. Maybe because they realize that they don't have a leg to stand on? Larry has only managed to demonstrate his own personal ignorance. And he claims that Black's book has fallen on its face - yet he proudly admits hasn't even bothered to read the book. Which means he doesn't even know that most of his objections to Black are strawmen or simply incorrect.
>>>Tell me, Kevin, why is it that in so many countries you can go to jail for questioning official holocaust history? Answer that.<<<
Because the governments are overzealous in their efforts to prevent a future holocaust. They are afraid that if idiots like you are permitted to spew forth their ignorance, the people will forget the horror of 11 million deaths for the simple crime of existing.
I am reluctant to answer Kevin's comments because they take so long to answer because they are full of unsubstantiated BS. Nonetheless, I feel that the preceding comment should not go unanswered.
W. Kevin Vicklund said...
>>>>>>First of all, there were reports of people being mistakenly identified as Jews. <<<<<<
>>>I have not heard of any.<
Of course, you haven't even attempted to look for such accounts, either. <<<<<
If this were a big issue, I am sure I would have seen something about it by now.
>>>>>>Where did the Nazis get all this wonderful genealogical data, particularly data that concerned people's religious beliefs?<
Churches and synagogues kept detailed records of births, marriages, and deaths, and the Nazi's required them to turn this data over to the government. The government also started keeping track of this information in the 1880's (if I remember the dates correctly). <<<<<<
What kind of government would depend on churches and synagogues to keep vital records on citizens?
Anyway, many people classified as Jews by the Nazis did not consider themselves to be Jews. They would not have belonged to synagogues.
Also, Germany had many years of peacetime to gather data on German Jews. However, most alleged Jewish victims of the holocaust were not Germans, and it was especially hard to gather data on non-German Jews because of wartime conditions.
>>>>>Also, considering the great difficulty of identifying some marginal Jews, it seems that the Nazis would have tattooed them immediately for permanent identification.<
Why? Once identified, they were in the system. The system was quite capable of keeping track of people. <<<<<<
Why? People move around. The Nazis had no positive means of identification like fingerprinting or DNA testing.
>>>>>>How in the hell could the Nazis create a registry of the citizens of a sovereign foreign nation?<
By employing 2,000 people to investigate and catalog the populace of neghboring countries over the course of several years. <<<<<<
That's absurd -- what nation would give foreigners access to its records? And why would these foreign nations keep records on who was Jewish? Why would they even care?
>>>>>> Whoever said they couldn't find or identify them? They were planning to invade. This was part of the plan on how to handle the populace. <<<<<<
You are just waving your arms here.
>>>>>> The worst atrocities (ghettoization, concentration, and extermination) didn't happen until after ID cards were issued. Those mistakenly identified as Jewish had several years to prove it in court. <<<<<<
Maybe in Germany -- but not in occupied countries. People were just rounded up en masse. Anyway, there was always the risk that some people would be mistakenly identified as Jews. And there was also the problem that their relatives and/or friends could be identified as Jews. You could have Jews and non-Jews in the same family. You still have not answered those questions.
>>>>>>It hasn't been ignored by mainstream holocaust historians. I've now pointed out two books written in the 80's that address the very issues Larry has brought up - and that is by no means the only two books. <<<<<<
You are just talking through your hat. Why would the book "IBM and the Holocaust" say that the subject of Jew identification in the holocaust had previously been largely ignored?
>>>>>> And he claims that Black's book has fallen on its face - yet he proudly admits hasn't even bothered to read the book. <<<<<<<
If a book's introduction cannot make a good case for the book, then the rest of the book is not worth reading -- and the book is not worth buying.
>>>>>>Tell me, Kevin, why is it that in so many countries you can go to jail for questioning official holocaust history? Answer that.<
Because the governments are overzealous in their efforts to prevent a future holocaust. <<<<<<
Wrong. It has nothing to do with preventing a future holocaust. There have been other genocides, and even the thought of the possibility of a genocide serves to help prevent a future one.
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