I'm from Missouri

This site is named for the famous statement of US Congressman Willard Duncan Vandiver from Missouri : "I`m from Missouri -- you'll have to show me." This site is dedicated to skepticism of official dogma in all subjects. Just-so stories are not accepted here. This is a site where controversial subjects such as evolution theory and the Holocaust may be freely debated.

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Location: Los Angeles, California, United States

My biggest motivation for creating my own blogs was to avoid the arbitrary censorship practiced by other blogs and various other Internet forums. Censorship will be avoided in my blogs -- there will be no deletion of comments, no closing of comment threads, no holding up of comments for moderation, and no commenter registration hassles. Comments containing nothing but insults and/or ad hominem attacks are discouraged. My non-response to a particular comment should not be interpreted as agreement, approval, or inability to answer.

Tuesday, April 21, 2009

Ahmadinejad blames holocaust "myth" for Israeli-Palestinian conflict


From the National Post (Canada) Feb. 16, 2007

=====================================

A news article says,
Geneva – A major UN anti-racism conference already wounded by the boycott of nine Western countries, opened Monday with the buzz of anticipation for a speech by Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad – the only head of state who accepted an invitation to attend.

Mr. Ahmadinejad, who has referred to the Holocaust as a "myth" and called for Israel to be "wiped off the map," assailed the West for supporting the creation of the Jewish state after the atrocities of World War II.

"Under the pretext of Jewish suffering, they have helped bring to power the most oppressive, racist regime in Palestine," he said, to loud applause from Iranian activists in the gallery and pockets of headscarved Muslim women on the floor. "They have always been silent about their crimes."

With that, the 23 European Union countries who had not yet boycotted the conference abandoned their seats and streamed out of the hall, which was met by a smattering of more applause.

Pres. Ahmadinejad is a rather unsavory character and it is unfortunate that he is one of the world's best-known holocaust revisionists -- it gives holocaust revisionism a bad name.

My position is that a "systematic" Jewish holocaust was impossible because the Nazis had no objective and reliable ways of identifying Jews and non-Jews.

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9 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

The ways that Jews could be identified have been covered many times yet you refuse to open your eyes.

Tuesday, April 21, 2009 10:40:00 AM  
Blogger Larry Fafarman said...

Wrong, bozo. I said "objective" and "reliable" -- to have a "systematic" holocaust, ways of identifying Jews and non-Jews must work all the time, not just some of the time.

Tuesday, April 21, 2009 3:08:00 PM  
Blogger Erin said...

Wrong, bozo. I said "objective" and "reliable" -- to have a "systematic" holocaust, ways of identifying Jews and non-Jews must work all the time, not just some of the time.

This is just absolutely not true.
Besides that they did have "objective" (the jews identified themselves. . .good enough, right?) and "reliable" (the Jews, again, were basically tricked into identified themselves for their very own holocaust) ways of identifying Jews, even if such a system worked most of the time it would still have been a Jewish holocaust, and it would still have been systematic, nevermind that their "system" might not have been particularly good.

Finally, I don't think anyone believes that the holocaust was limited exclusively to Jews. Many other groups, disabled persons, Romany, homosexuals, political dissenters, and other ethnic and religious groups were also targeted and experimented on rather successfully.

Tuesday, April 21, 2009 11:18:00 PM  
Blogger Larry Fafarman said...

Erin says,

>>>>> This is just absolutely not true. <<<<<<

It is true.

>>>>>> Besides that they did have "objective" (the jews identified themselves. . .good enough, right?) <<<<<

No. As Michael Behe would say, not good enough. Edwin Black wrote in the introduction of his book "IBM and the Holocaust,"

When Hitler came to power, a central Nazi goal was to identify and destroy Germany's 600,000 Jews. To Nazis, Jews were not just those who practiced Judaism, but those of Jewish blood, regardless of their assimilation, intermarriage, religious activity, or even conversion to Christianity. Only after Jews were identified could they be targeted for asset confiscation, ghettoization, deportation, and ultimately extermination. To search generations of communal, church, and governmental records all across Germany--and later throughout Europe--was a cross-indexing task so monumental, it called for a computer. But in 1933, no computer existed . . . . .

I was haunted by a question whose answer has long eluded historians. The Germans always had the lists of Jewish names. Suddenly, a squadron of grim-faced SS would burst into a city square and post a notice demanding those listed assemble the next day at the train station for deportation to the East. But how did the Nazis get the lists? For decades, no one has known. Few have asked.
So Edwin Black also said that Jew identification was a problem for the Nazis, but when he says it he is regarded as an expert and when I say it I am regarded as a crackpot. And his theory that the Nazis identified all of the Jews of Europe by using primitive IBM Hollerith card machines to process data stored on billions of Hollerith cards is absurd -- even if all the necessary data had been available, those primitive machines simply did not have such data-processing capability. All those machines could do was just read, sort and merge a few cards at a time.

The issue of identification of Jews and non-Jews should be central to holocaust studies, but as Edwin Black indicates, this subject has been almost completely ignored.

>>>>>> Finally, I don't think anyone believes that the holocaust was limited exclusively to Jews. Many other groups, disabled persons, Romany, homosexuals, political dissenters, and other ethnic and religious groups were also targeted and experimented on rather successfully. <<<<<

Well, many in those other groups were hard to identify, too. A major exception was disabled people, which is why disabled people were among the biggest victims of the Nazis.

My views about the holocaust are discussed in the "Holocaust revisionism" and "Darwin-to-Hitler" post-label groups listed in the sidebar of homepage.

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 5:35:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Of the six million Jews Hitler killed, 3 million lived in Poland. When the Nazis invaded and occupied Poland, one of the first things they did once the occupation began was to get Jews to register, to identify themselves publicly as Jews and force them to move to ghettos. Why did the Jews go along with this you might ask?

Well, prior to 1918 Poland for the most part (and where most of these Jews lived) was part of Imperial Russia, where measures against Jews were part of law. When the Germans occupied this area in WW1 most Jews actually found German military occupation less discriminatory than Imperial Russian rule. As a result, most Jews thought that after Germany occupied Poland in WW2, that things would be the same as the German occupation during WW1. Sadly, this was not the case, and by having most Jews identifying themselves as Jews and in ghettos it was easy for the Nazis to systematically murder them, which they did.

There were other ways of easily identifying Jews. For Jewish males it was a simple matter of checking if they were circumcised, as almost all Polish Catholics (and most European males) were never circumcised.

Accent was another way of identifying them. Most Jews in Poland actually learnt Polish as a second language, after Yiddish, and as such spoke Polish with an accent, thereby making it easy to identify them.

Most Poles were also quite willing to identify Jews to Germans when necessary too, given the high level of anti-semitism fostered by the Catholic Church in Poland.

Now how do I know these things? Well, I come from a Polish Catholic family. I remember when I was younger some family "friends" (who I despise) talking about how the Germans killed Jews and how they weren't exactly unhappy about it, or ambivalent about it at best. You see, if you ask some Poles who saw what happened in WW2 they will tell you about how the Nazis systematically killed Jews, and why they didn't have a problem with it because Jews were Catholic Poland's enemy.

Lastly, the Nazis, when they was any doubt about whether someone was Jewish or not, tended to just kill them. On top of the 3 million Polish Jews the Nazis killed, they also killed 3 million Polish Catholics. For the Nazis, "accidentally" killing some Poles because they thought they were Jews was not a problem if it meant systematically eliminating Jews.

A "systematic" Jewish holocaust was possible because the Nazis were able to identify most Jews. Whether they had an "objective and reliable ways of identifying Jews and non-Jews" was irrelevant - the Nazis killed anybody they thought were Jews and had no problems "accidentally" killing non-Jews if it meant exterminating all Jews.

Have you read "IBM and the Holocaust"? I have. If you have you will actually see that the way the Nazis actually identified Jews in most countries was through existing data in the countries they occupied, such as government records and censuses. Oh, and until you read the book (if you are capable of reading a book like that, given the aversion to reading books that you have admitted) don't claim his ideas are absurd. If you read the book, you would know why.

Now that that has been said, I should also point out that a hypocrite you are. You say on your blog that:

"Censorship will be avoided in my blogs -- there will be no deletion of comments, no closing of comment threads, no holding up of comments for moderation, and no commenter registration hassles."

Yet, when I go to comment, low and behold, what does it say:

"Comment moderation has been enabled. All comments must be approved by the blog author."

Given your lies on not censoring comments, your selectively quoting a book you haven't even read, and your complete ignorance about how the Nazis identified many Jews and their willingness to kill non-Jews if they thought it would bring them closer to wiping out Europe's Jews, I really do think you are an anti-semite, like all Holocaust deniers/revisionists. You claim that you aren't in the hope that this will give your racism some level of respectability that saying "I hate Jews, and the holocaust didn't happen" won't. Here's the thing - it doesn't. Like all Holocaust deniers/revisionists your racism is out there for all people to see.

Aleksandr

Thursday, April 23, 2009 2:49:00 AM  
Blogger Larry Fafarman said...

Anonymous (Aleksandr), you stupid dunghill, you completely ignored the things that I said.

>>>>>> and by having most Jews identifying themselves as Jews and in ghettos it was easy for the Nazis to systematically murder them, which they did. <<<<<<<

Edwin Black, author of "IBM and the Holocaust," who is supposed to be an expert on the subject of Nazi identification of Jews, said,

To Nazis, Jews were not just those who practiced Judaism, but those of Jewish blood, regardless of their assimilation, intermarriage, religious activity, or even conversion to Christianity . . . .

I was haunted by a question whose answer has long eluded historians. The Germans always had the lists of Jewish names. . . . But how did the Nazis get the lists? For decades, no one has known. Few have asked.

>>>>>> There were other ways of easily identifying Jews. For Jewish males it was a simple matter of checking if they were circumcised, as almost all Polish Catholics (and most European males) were never circumcised. <<<<<<<

What about women? And where are the pictures or stories of the Nazis pantsing guys? I don't think the Nazis would have done that because doing that would have made the Nazis look like gays, and the Nazis hated gays.


>>>>> Most Poles were also quite willing to identify Jews to Germans when necessary too, given the high level of anti-semitism fostered by the Catholic Church in Poland. <<<<<<

You stopid jackass, why would the Nazis have trusted people who would rat on their neighbors? And you said that the Nazis killed as many Polish Catholics as Polish Jews. Why would Polish Catholics have helped the Nazis? This "informer" stuff is a load of crap. And relying on "informers" is simply not a reliable way of identifying Jews.

>>>>>> A "systematic" Jewish holocaust was possible because the Nazis were able to identify most Jews. <<<<<<

How? That is just an unsupported assertion.

>>>>>>> If you have you will actually see that the way the Nazis actually identified Jews in most countries was through existing data in the countries they occupied, such as government records and censuses. <<<<<<<

Doofus, the book "IBM and the Holocaust" said that the Nazis used the IBM Hollerith machines to cross-correlate data stored on billions of Hollerith cards. That's impossible, because those primitive machines could only read, sort, and merge a few cards at a time. The book says, "Jews could not hide from millions of punch cards thudding through Hollerith machines, comparing names across generations, address changes across regions, family trees and personal data across unending registries." That's ridiculous. Also, the map of Europe changed dramatically after WW 1, and so a lot of the older records must have been lost because there was no continuity of governments to maintain them. The book was contradicted by the former senior historian of the research institute of the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Holocaust Museum, who said, "We have no proof that the Hollerith was ever used to target individuals for deportation lists." [link]


To have a "systematic" Jewish holocaust, the ways of identifying Jews and non-Jews must work all of the time, not just occasionally.

The Nazis just rounded up people en masse — there was no time to do individual genealogical studies or other background checks on them. And even today, we don’t know exactly what a Jew is. How can there be a “systematic” Jewish holocaust when we don’t even know exactly what a Jew is?

The issue of identification of Jews and non-Jews should be central to holocaust studies but has been almost completely ignored.

>>>>>> Now that that has been said, I should also point out that a hypocrite you are. You say on your blog that:

"Censorship will be avoided in my blogs -- there will be no deletion of comments, no closing of comment threads, no holding up of comments for moderation, and no commenter registration hassles." <<<<<

You lousy, disgusting sack of living crap, I'm am not going to change the header of my blog just because lousy trolls like you forced me to impose comment moderation. I was getting comments that (1) contained nothing but scoffing, (2) lies about objective facts, and (3) gossip about my private affairs. If I am so hypocritical, dunghill, then why did you bother writing such a long comment? Did you actually think that I was going to publish it?


>>>>>> your selectively quoting a book you haven't even read <<<<<<<

I read the book's long introduction, which had the book's essence. Why should I read the whole book if the book's long introduction does not make a good case for it?

>>>>> your complete ignorance about how the Nazis identified many Jews <<<<<<

What do you mean, my "complete ignorance about how the Nazis identified many Jews," dunghill -- you think I haven't heard it all by now?

>>>>> their willingness to kill non-Jews if they thought it would bring them closer to wiping out Europe's Jews <<<<<<

So why would anyone, even a virulent anti-Semite, collaborate with the Nazis?

>>>>> Like all Holocaust deniers/revisionists your racism is out there for all people to see. <<<<<<

That is just an ad hominem attack with no foundation, dunghill.

Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:59:00 AM  
Blogger Jim Sherwood said...

These trolls seem to be exceedingly phoney. It's clear that Larry has always done his best to maintain a perfectly unmoderated, free and open blog. And even now, although he finally feels forced to moderate to some degree, he still obviously publishes almost all of the tirades that these trolls submit. It's clear that nobody is stronger than Larry in supporting free speech and freedom of expression.

Thursday, April 23, 2009 5:59:00 PM  
Blogger Larry Fafarman said...

Jim Sherwood said,
>>>>>> And even now, although he finally feels forced to moderate to some degree, he still obviously publishes almost all of the tirades that these trolls submit. <<<<<

I don't publish the following kinds of comments:

(1) Comments containing nothing but scoffing

(2) Comments that contain lies about objective facts. Example: ViW and/or ViU kept repeating over and over again that Judge Jones told a newspaper that he was going to follow the law whereas he really told the newspaper that the Dover school board election results would not affect his decision.

(3) Comments that gossip about my private affairs.

>>>>>> It's clear that nobody is stronger than Larry in supporting free speech and freedom of expression. <<<<<<

Thanks, Jim.

Thursday, April 23, 2009 6:49:00 PM  
Blogger Larry Fafarman said...

Aleksandr, you disgusting troll, the last comment that you submitted contains a remark about my relatives, and I said that I don't tolerate gossip about my private affairs. The comment will therefore not be published.

Friday, April 24, 2009 7:51:00 AM  

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